Fighting for our freedom of choice

[jlavallee]

I don't have time to write a longer reply at the moment but I will later to address the points you raised.

Ultimately, each arguement can be picked apart except for the fact that the right does impose things on people too.

Again, a lot of the theory you base your arguement is ideological. Paying "fair share" and such. If you make more money you already pay more than your share with our system. I compare Obama to Ghandi because he is doing things his way and to hell with the feelings of the people.

[A DRAGON]

Yeah Jason I know you do

[Team Gorgonzola]

I don't have time to write a longer reply at the moment but I will later to address the points you raised.

Ultimately, each arguement can be picked apart except for the fact that the right does impose things on people too.

Again, a lot of the theory you base your arguement is ideological. Paying "fair share" and such. If you make more money you already pay more than your share with our system. I compare Obama to Ghandi because he is doing things his way and to hell with the feelings of the people.

Hummm who else was "doing things his way and to hell with the feelings of the people" Oh yeah he actually started a war with not just us but the whole world was saying he was wrong!!. I guess I can compare "W" to Ghandi  :

[jlavallee]

Well, I guess most, if not all of you are conservatives.  I am in between. Firstly Obama got voted in because he said he would change things. People was tired of having an idiot as president (just you-tube "W" and you'll see what I mean) and wanted a change. He is changing some things but the Washington political machine is geared towards the giant corporations and the super-rich. Thus is all but impossible to change it. If I was elected president (was not born here so....) I would march the National Guard to Washington and I would kick all the lobbyist out. Than I would start anew. Our banking and financial system are designed to enrich the ones at the top, enslaving everyone else; from the upper-middle class to the poor. We are all to busy paying bills, bring home food and worrying about our future to really pay attention to what is really going on in our capital. Do you think that is by choice?? "W" and the Cheney/Rumsfeld gang did nothing but line their own and their friends pockets with financial de-regulation and even an unprovoked and unjustified war. Extreme capitalism is just as bad as socialism. The past administration lied and lied and nothing ever happened to them (it never does). Consequently the populace wasn't going to have another 4 years of that s**t. It's all about the mighty dollar, who has it and who want it. I don't see any romance in it.
If you have an open mind and a bit of time watch this:

http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/

Is a three parts documentary talks about religion; the American banking/financial system and of course 9/11.
At the very least is very interesting.

Yet another point in here confuses me. I don't consider myself conservative except for in a fiscal sense. The left wing has sold people on the fact that if you think of yourself as open minded you must be liberal. At one time in the past maybe that was the way the liberals were but now the only things they're open minded about are abortion and gay rights. Neither of which I have any issue with nor do many. Those two items are about the ONLY two things I agree with the left on. I would say I am libertarian if you have to choose.
Alberto, you mention Zeitgeist so you are obviously aware that the Federal reserve is a private entity. The mad spending of Bush was bad but what Obama has done makes it look mild. Since his inagugration the national debt has increased to $13,310,887,351,666 or $2,684,010,302,753 just ponder that. Since Obama has taken office he is responsible for over 20% of the debt over history! At 10.4 when he took office to 13.3 now you can say that he increased the debt level by 25% in less than half his first term. You are a business man and as one, can you honestly say that makes any sense?

Has Obama not brought us into Afghanistan? Has he really done anything to get us out of war? Again, when did I defend Bush? What does that have to do with Obama?
Extreme capitalism is bad? What is extreme capitalism? If you mean breaking the law and extorting money, fixing markets and stealing from people. That is illegal now. That is the fault of the legal system for not punishing law breakers. That is not a fault of capitalism. Zeitgeist is a pretty good documentary but it has the idealism as its fatal flaw I'll speak more to this as I respond to Jerome.

To be honest, it very much follows a Star Trek mentality and yes, that idyllic notion would work for most but it presumes that nurture not nature makes us the way we are and that is just not the case. Certainly, fixing most of the systemic cultural issues would solve most of the problems but not all of them.

[jlavallee]

Thanks Allen for all of this.....

Yo Diggity and Jason you know how I feel. I totally agree with Team Gorgonzola.  If it's so bad Jason the fire department, Police Department are all government controlled. They seem to work out OK.

You're getting confused in the duties of federal versus state/local government. I'll assume you understand that the states manage the police departments and that whole system was a check / balance to ensure no police state would occur. If you love Obama though you might think what we need is to federalize these services just as we have been doing with banks. Federal Tsars and goose stepping into the Obama future, oh boy. No thanks, the Federal government has no place taking over police or fire departments as they are poorly managed enough now.

[jlavallee]

I think Obama is one of the best presidents we've ever had.

All The Republicans did was make it easier for the rich to get richer and keep from paying their fair share of taxes. I can't believe you don't see that. Had wall street regulate it self. You see what that did for us. Some one has to regulate these people. BP was able to regulate themselves. Again we the working class get screwed again. If you did have the research you said you did you would be able to see. Stop wasting your electricty on Fox News and Rush Limpbaugh. You'll understand better.

My 0.02   

I actually cry because I know you believe that. That makes me very sad.

Fair share of taxes is a funny thing when members of the Obama cabinet are tax evaders like Geithner. You are confusing two points:

Wealth redistribution: An ideologue notion that somehow you are entitled to the productivity of someone else. What gives you this magical power? If I am a well-paid CEO what right do you have to take the fruits of my labor and give it to someone else? Why would I be subjected to giving more than my communal share? Why should I support someone who chooses not to support themselves? Because he has more, you are entitled to it? Don’t get this confused with the idea that they’re not worth what they’re paid.

Government programs are not supposed to discriminate and ensure our constitutional freedoms are not trampled. That is the extent of their power. Now in reality since we all use the same roads and have the same military and so forth, what is your argument for taking more from wealthy? Why then should anyone produce? The only fair tax is a flat rate one. I know you can’t see this because the hate for those who you feel has more than they deserve is blinding so let’s put it simply.

What you are saying (but you make it sound good with Wall Street examples that are about crime) is The following:

If there are two families on an island and there is no food except fish caught during summer to sustain them through winter. One family works hard, fishes a lot and has enough to get them through the winter in comfort. Family two sits on their ass and does nothing or are too stupid to figure out how to fish well and does not have enough. In your scenario, family two has the RIGHT to STEAL from family one, lowering their standard of living to sustain their own. ARE YOU COMPLETELY MAD! What we are talking about is redistribution of wealth in simple terms and YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO IMPOSE YOUR WILL ON ANYONE ELSE!

I'm not trying to be mean J. It sounded that way when I read it and that is not the case but jeeze man, you have to see that just because nobody is starving it is the same principal.

Yes, maybe family one will decide to share some of their catch as happens in communities in nature. On the other hand, they might also let the stupid and lazy die off. This is Darwinism and is the basis for evolution.

I would ask you to evaluate what kind of person you are. When I see someone with a nice car or home my reaction is “how can I do that” not “what a jerk, he shouldn’t have that because I don’t.”

Crime: You confuse and imply that Wall Street is a result of capitalism but there are laws against the bad things you’re talking about. Your precious Obama didn’t mind taking money from the bankers and insurance companies. We need to punish those who break laws not destroy capitalism. Again, your viewpoint seems to be that capitalism encourages greed and that is in your opinion evil so it must be vanquished. A desire to improve our status is what has driven human evolution.

[Adiggity]

I don't know why it always turns into who is better than who. George Bush (W) or Obama. Though the answer is clearly obvious in terms of what is best for America..... :

First thing is first. Our system is flawed, and has been for a long time. Re-read Jason's post before Jerome's wacko rant.   Bush wasn't a great President, but he was a whole hell of a lot better than Obama was. J, you saying Obama is one of the best Presidents we've ever had makes me want to throw up. Seriously. Bush sucked. Ok, I'll give you that. I never said he was great. None of the politicians are. Career politicians are completely out of touch with what it is like to have to work for your money. Pay taxes and pay bills. If they want more money, they just write up a new bill proposal to get more money for what ever they want and hide it under some kind of b.s. disguise just so it will pass and they get their money for their trains, planes and automobiles. If I had a choice, I'd fire everyone and start fresh with some people who want to truly use the Constitution as a base and go from there. It has gotten way out of hand. The major problem I see with the current administration is they are pushing for more government control and they don't care what it costs to get it. Even though we have no money as it is. We are broke but they just keep putting on a credit card. We and our future generations are going to pay for it. That is if we can stop the bleeding now. (which won't happen)

You want to talk about being offended?

Why don't you see very many minorities in their Political party

Are you serious? If I read that correctly your saying there aren't many minorities in the Republican party. That is absurd.

Jerome, name one business the government has EVER run and been successful. Just one. You say the police and fire department do ok. They are funded by their state government, not run by them. They are run by the employees. If they were run by the federal government then they wouldn't be taking the Arizona Sheriff's Dept. to court over the immigration deal that is going on right now. There are three things that the federal government should do. 1) Military, 2) Mail, 3)Make Money (actually make it). That is it. They can't run a business and be successful. It's been proven in history. Amtrak would've been gone a long time ago if it were a private business because it's broke. Guess who runs Amtrak?

You say you don't see people in hoards coming to the U.S. Then in the very next sentence you defend the people that are coming over in hoards and blame it on us. Why is it our responsibility to make their country a good place for them to live? Can't we get our country right first before we try and help everyone else out?

Well, I have more to say but am out of time. I gotta run. I'll leave you with this though J. You say Obama is one of the best Presidents ever. Tell me what he has done that is so great. Remember Lincoln and Washington were Presidents too. Just for a little comparison.....  

[jlavallee]

I'm not looking for any hand outs just a chance to get the same breaks as everyone else. I did OK in my life. But remember this when your saying some people are just looking for hand outs.   If Jesus Christ was standing next to you. Would you still say you shouldn't try and help your fellow man? Or say Jesus were going get ours with the trickle down theory. The rich will do the right thing.  He was hoping for that. You see what they did to him. And they got the working class to turn him in and said they did it for them.  The bible has a good message too. You should try and read it. Try and follow some of the things they are saying. Like love your brother. 

No Disrespect intended here. Just something to help you see. I've seen it long time ago. I'm going to look after my fellow man every chance I get.

My 0.02   [/b]

You just admitted it right there. Your political views are dictated by ideology. I know you believe this statement and I am not trying to argue the validity of its moral value but you do NOT have the right to force this view on another.

You have every right to look after your fellow man but what gives you the right to force me to do that? I have no right to cause my fellow man harm but I have no responsibility to look after him either.

You earlier mentioned a woman’s right to choose. The people who try to prevent that right believe they are saving her soul and a life just as strongly as you feel you are looking out for your fellow man. Yet because their views don’t align with theirs, they’re wrong and you’re right?

You are upset because I compared Obama to Ghandi, they are both very similar in that they are idealogues who refuse to accept that their notion of how it “should” be is possibly wrong. They both feel it is their right to impose their will on people forcing their beliefs on them. They both believe in a large controlling government and that the state knows better than the individual.

You argument is clouded by your love for your cause and it is one that you honestly believe to be noble. You feel like those who attack your cause are evil but remember, you are forcing your views on us.

Obama care (without going into the obvious issues of why it doesn’t work the way it was sold by the left) is supposedly intended to cover more people. You feel that is right so you force it on all of us. If I don’t agree with you then shouldn’t you liberals cover the uninsured with your share? No, you need to force your views on me and take my share to reduce your cost of providing coverage to others.

No matter how you slice it or try to justify it, your actions are no different than the religious people who trample the rights of gay people. Just like you justify it, they feel the same way.

[jlavallee]

Jerome,

Please start a political section. I'm tired and I want to talk to the other points but I have to sleep too. To explain why you're again taking an idealogical viewpoint that you have no right to force on others on the topic of illegal immigration, what Obama pulled with the BP shake down and so on are just too much for tonight.

Just know, you're one of the few idealogues I'd even bother trying to show the light to.

You could accuse me of ass kissing but I figure the Ghandi reference balances it out. :-)

[n10sive]

Jerome,

One of the popular myths is that Democrats stand for minorities and Republicans don't. Go back and look who supported the civil rights movements. It wasn't the democrats.

Also look back to Bush's cabinet members. Look at the current RNC Chair (Steele). I sometimes thing people have a tendency to believe all the bullshit their "own" people tell them...including whites. Don't fall for it and think freely.

Many Americans would be surprised to know that Martin Luther King, Jr. embraced conservative ideals.

Yet King's choice of political affinity made perfect sense: it was Republicans, not Democrats, who consistently fought for freedom and civil rights for blacks since their founding in 1854—as the anti-slavery party.

In fact, the Democrats tried to filibuster and stop the 1964 Civil Rights Act from passing.

Republicans also established the NAACP and founded and financed all the earliest black schools and colleges.

[reno240sx]

I think debating politics online is pretty useless. People on the right think that this country is going to hell in a hand basket because of Obama. People on the left think that the Republicans  are stopping any change from happening by voting 'no' on everything. The people who typically get involved in these debates are set in their beliefs and think everyone else is stupid and misinformed. No one ever changes their mind. When it comes down to it, no one is completely right. Everything is based in theory. There are so many factors that it is impossible to say one way is the only way to get things done.

With that said, I'm pretty liberal, by reading people's replies probably in their mind too liberal. I hope no one tries to 'choke me' for my views. I think that Obama had great plans when he got into office and really wanted to make some very positive changes in this country (in my mind). Unfortunately, the Washington political machine doesn't work like that and has screwed him over.

As for the deficit, it should be increasing right now. When the economy takes a dump, increased spending by the government can get things back. The problem with the deficit is that when the economy was strong, we were still running a deficit. I think that when times are good, there should be no deficit; when times are bad there should be one.

I think that we need to care for the people of this country. People should not be sick and hungry in the richest and most powerful country in the world. If that means higher taxes for the rich, so be it. Am I willing to pay higher taxes if it will help someone get the medical care they need? Hell yeah! Are there people that milk the system? Yes. Do I think that should ruin it for everyone else? No.

There is a rambling overview of my political beliefs. Will you arguing my points make me change my mind? Probably not. Just like I know me explaining my views fully will probably not change anyone else's.

[jlavallee]

I think debating politics online is pretty useless. People on the right think that this country is going to hell in a hand basket because of Obama. People on the left think that the Republicans  are stopping any change from happening by voting 'no' on everything. The people who typically get involved in these debates are set in their beliefs and think everyone else is stupid and misinformed. No one ever changes their mind. When it comes down to it, no one is completely right. Everything is based in theory. There are so many factors that it is impossible to say one way is the only way to get things done.

With that said, I'm pretty liberal, by reading people's replies probably in their mind too liberal. I hope no one tries to 'choke me' for my views. I think that Obama had great plans when he got into office and really wanted to make some very positive changes in this country (in my mind). Unfortunately, the Washington political machine doesn't work like that and has screwed him over.

As for the deficit, it should be increasing right now. When the economy takes a dump, increased spending by the government can get things back. The problem with the deficit is that when the economy was strong, we were still running a deficit. I think that when times are good, there should be no deficit; when times are bad there should be one.

I think that we need to care for the people of this country. People should not be sick and hungry in the richest and most powerful country in the world. If that means higher taxes for the rich, so be it. Am I willing to pay higher taxes if it will help someone get the medical care they need? Hell yeah! Are there people that milk the system? Yes. Do I think that should ruin it for everyone else? No.

There is a rambling overview of my political beliefs. Will you arguing my points make me change my mind? Probably not. Just like I know me explaining my views fully will probably not change anyone else's.

It is that simple. Neither you nor anyone on the left or right has the right to force their beliefs down someone else's throat. You can have your health care but I don't want any part of it. You want to force your beliefs on me so I can help subsidize your cause!

Stop arguing ideology people. Argue with logic not feelings or what Jesus would have you do. Not everyone believes what you believe and I warn you, look at history and what happens when a group of people force their views on another. Every group feels it is right. Deep down Ghandi believed he was cleaning the earth of Jews and doing a good thing. He WAS entitled to his belief; he WAS NOT entitled to force it on anyone else.

You're free to do whatever you want, give all your money to the poor, go have wild sex parties while chanting about the devil, I really don't care. As long as you don't do anything to a person who does not consent then I really COULD NOT CARE LESS. When you f-around with my freedoms and force your views down my throat then we're going to have a serious problem.

This is NOT about agreeing with your views. YOU ARE entitled to them just as I AM entitled to mine.

[D1NO]

You're free to do whatever you want, give all your money to the poor, go have wild sex parties while chanting about the devil,

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ................ Till i read this... 

Why dont we just get an adult section?! We'll probably get more hits that way...

[Adiggity]

You're free to do whatever you want, give all your money to the poor, go have wild sex parties while chanting about the devil,

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ................ Till i read this... 

Why dont we just get an adult section?! We'll probably get more hits that way...

I'd be good with that too.  Politics suck!

[jlavallee]

Can I assume that all the Obama supporters finally get it and understand that even though they think his ideas are "wonderful" they accept that this does not give them the right to force the rest of us to pay for it or succumb to those beliefs? Or are we all still closed minded "conservatives" because we don't believe what they do? :