When I fell down

[AFM937]

I've thought about putting a post for a few days now but after talking to Paul last evening I realize that few understand what happened with the entire incident. As I explained to Paul....I was on track for most of what was a "C" session. I guess some people thought I was entering the track.
Anyway three things caused the crash.

1. The red flag. Why this was thrown for someone who they "thought" blew the checker is plain stupid. The red flag is for stopping all traffic on track usually to roll the ambulance. The ambulance can't get on track until everyone is STOPPED. This flag seems to be used more and more for almost any reason at RFR.
2. Stopping for a red flag. Raise your hand and come to a safe controlled STOP. Scott on the 511 CBR attempted a left u turn then flipped around to right u turn and put himself broadside infront of me. He did nothing as far as doing a safe controlled stop. He never looked back to see if anyone was behind him.
3. When I saw the red flag I threw my hand up and looked to exit the track I didn't slow down nearly as fast as I thought could so when he crossed in front of me I had no place to go and hit him. The bike was still in 5th after the crash.

[cobra23]

Red Flag to get one rider off the track....because he blew the checker??

Red flag is for emergencies only. This is not just my opinion, as I have worked as a corner marshal at Seattle, Spokane, and Reno.

This is odd.

Secondly generaly the rule at least in WMRRA (Washington), is to slow down when you see the red flag, then stop at the NEXT turn preferably at the entrance to the turn on the inside (away from the race line).

Maybe Terry will read this and weigh in.......

[n10sive]

glad you and Scott survived it!

Thanks for posting up Eddie.

[Team Gorgonzola]

Eddie, you are absolutely right, the red flag was the major culprit, Ted, thanks for confirming what I was thought years ago (Keigwins trackdays, mostly). Red flags to get people off the track because they missed a checkered the first time is idiotic. No one from SSA ever instructed Terry to do so and I questioned this once before. I was so mad, after the accident, that I had to stop myself from yelling at the track "director". First I never, ever been shown, a red flag (together with a checkered), at Fernely, or any other racetrack, because I missed a checkered flag, at some other station; until a couple of trackdays ago at RFR. It should be a black flag, if anything at all. Second; to red flag someone, on the fastest part of the track for a non-emergency reason, just create one. Because of such a misguided use, I now, look at the flag station on the Sunset straight multiple times, a giant distraction while I am going as fast as I can and late braking in the next corner. Then on turn 23 I squint and try to see if there is a checkered flag at Terry station, 'cause I don't want to get a red flag, if I go by, and I missed it at the previous one. I worked grid many times before,  and this IS new. In the last few trackdays we had quite few riders not seeing the checkered on the back straight. Not a coincidence as, with only one other station showing it, just isn't enough. No doubt Scott was confused about the two flags thrown together and what to do next...... I just want to ride safely and have fun. They have a skeleton crew up there and because of it, some issues are surfacing. Lance Keigwins always said at the meetings:" if you blow a checkered flag you are automatically in the next group session, if you are a "C" group and the next is "A" you are shit out of luck" I like that much better.

ps Scott came back on Sunday and worked grid all day, feeling bad and mortified about what happened.

[Rick Bay (BRA)]

Well, why don't we change that rule about "blew checker flag"? Let's copy Lance Keigwins if you blew the checker flag you're automatically on the next section and is mandatory to come to the paddock after you finish the extra lap.
But, on the riders meeting, let everybody know if you do it all the time you'll be punish for it or a serious conversations will be necessary.

[AFM937]

first guys thanks for understanding...What I didn't say before is that Scott or myself never blew a checker in 12. There was a miscommunication with the turn 12 flagger and terry on start/finish. What I am saying is that scott on a red Honda went throught 12 then myself then another guy on a red bike (don't know who). The guy that was behind me by several turns got the checker so when scott came down the front straight he must of got confused with the flags presented to him by terry. Terry thinking this was the bike that got the flag in 12. Scott and I discussed this while in the ambulance and agreed with eachother. So now I am just saying that the flag was just part of what happened, not the focal point. Scott should have NEVER tried to turn or change direction which he did twice and like I said before never even looked. Thankfully we didn't get hurt worse. 

[n10sive]

Eddie, can you clear up WHERE this happened? On the track before turn 1? I have heard that it occurred in the drag strip run off area OFF track? That doesn't make much sense.

Thanks in advance.

[Adiggity]

I agree running the checkered and red flags together is just plain confusing and stupid. This can, and obviously did create an issue. That is RFR's policy, not ours. All we can do is suggest to them to do it different but ultimately it is their track and their decision.

Eddie your right. You two are lucky you didn't get hurt any worse or killed even. When I heard this story it gave me shivers just thinking about what could've happened. I was so happy to hear you guys were both ok.

As for Scott turning around. I agree, and it should be pretty common sense that nobody should EVER turn around on the race track. But in this incident I heard you guys were off the race track in the dragstrip starting area behind the cones. That made me wonder why would you be going so fast through there if you got the red flag at the tower. I haven't heard the story from either of you directly so I hate drawing conclusions on anything.

I know this. As has been said already, throwing the red flag for anything other than emergency situations should never happen. We can tell everyone what to do in certain situations until we're blue in the face at a riders meeting but there are always multiple people who miss things or don't pay attention. I have asked people a question about something we cover in the riders meeting regarding safety and they have no idea what I am talking about. For instance exiting the track. Many times I have seen people exit the track totally against the standard procedure that we cover very clearly in the riders meeting and when I confront them they say, "Oh really, I didn't hear that part" or "Oh yeah, I forgot that". So I try to make it my personal responsibility to be extra cautious when coming up on someone in the last turn on the track or when red flags are being waived. It's just not worth taking a risk on what can happen just because you think everyone will do what you believe is the right thing. Just like riding on the street, there is only one person you can control, and that is you.

[Oneup]

I don't understand the why the reason the red flag is thrown is important.  A red flag is a red flag.  Come to a safe and complete stop as soon as possible.  Period.  It's up to the track and the provider to decide whether or not it should be thrown and under what circumstances.  All that matters to us as riders is that we obey it no matter the circumstances.  A lot of other providers use the red flag if someone blows a checkered and there hasn't been an incident with them.  Part of the reason they haven't had an incident is because they explain pretty clearly:  if you see a red flag come to a safe and complete stop and wait for direction from a flagger.  Nothing else should matter to the rider other than that.

[TWF]

Few points.
- red flag on end of group means track is closed, session is over, complete lap and exit.
- no need for checkered along red, just red
- there should be no stopping on track, period. Race organizations are getting away from this, those that had it that way (willows), because it causes more problems than it does good. AFM is exception and will never learn. CA track day organizations seem to copy afm. On red flag you back off the pace considerably and complete lap with proper exit in pit lane.

[AFM937]

TWF????What ..."complete the lap. Under a red flag are you kidding me! The red flag is the only reason to ever stop on track. And like oneup said wait for direction once you safely stop.


Andy I threw my hand up and had too much speed to stop as soon as the other guy. Once he crossed in front of me I had no place to go and hit him. He did not stop or look around like I said before. Plus he was wearing an SSA vest.

Dale I hit him somewhere in the drag strip guessing 20 - 40 feet from the road course. 2WCP steve would be a good source because he did the recovery of both bikes.

[Team Gorgonzola]

A lot of other providers use the red flag if someone blows a checkered and there hasn't been an incident with them.  Part of the reason they haven't had an incident is because they explain pretty clearly:  if you see a red flag come to a safe and complete stop and wait for direction from a flagger.  N

Maybe we need someone else to explain the flag meaning.......

[Adiggity]

A lot of other providers use the red flag if someone blows a checkered and there hasn't been an incident with them.  Part of the reason they haven't had an incident is because they explain pretty clearly:  if you see a red flag come to a safe and complete stop and wait for direction from a flagger.  N

Maybe we need someone else to explain the flag meaning.......

I have been to our riders meetings and Terry always explains the flags. He isn't the greatest at explaining the flags that I have ever seen but when he explains the red flag, it is pretty clear on what he says to do. Throw your hand up and come to a controlled stop. And I even drive that home with a "throw you hand up first,  come to a stop. We're not saying stop as soon as possible, just a controlled stop and in a safe area. Not in any blind spots."

I never remember hearing/saying to pull off the track, unless you get a meatball and your leaking something.

Eddie, this is where I am a little confused. Why didn't you guys stay on the track? And when did Terry show the red flag? Right before you got to start finish?

[AFM937]

Alright andy check this out. I'll try to explain this better. When the flags were thrown to me it was at the start finish as where flags are normally thrown. I immediately threw my left hand in the air to warn anyone behind me that I was going to do something different. As I grabbed the bar again I passing braking marker and was carring to much speed to make the turn into 1. I had no choice than to began slowing down in the drag strip area. I don't know why the other rider exited there or why he DID NOT stop. So like I said before he got in my way AS i was trying to slow down and hit him.

Call me direct if you have ? that goes for anyone. I am done with posts.

[Scott]