What New Roads For 2014?

[RenoRider75]

Two topics here, way to keep it fun!

For the original topic, I just want to get out there and ride.  The photos GM put up look awesome; it would be great to just get out there and ride.  I don't feel like I have the skill necessary to handle goat roads at any pace faster than my grandma, but the smooth and clean roads are very enjoyable.

For the second topic of knee down, I'm planning on riding a lot of open track days this coming season.  Learning technique on the track is a good idea since you can place almost all of your attention on the riding (none of it is wasted on looking for the soccer mom in an SUV texting while she tries to kill you).  I've heard various good/bad things about RFR, but a lot of great things about Thunder Hill.

See you guys in the Spring!

[GreenMachine]

For the love of riding and control of the machine.

Call me a rebel. 

I wasn't asking why you like doing it, I was asking why you think it's safer.

What's clear to me is that I ride slower and safer with my knee on the ground and the idea is to keep attempting slower and slower speeds while doing so.

Why?

If you are dragging your knee it means that either you are a) carrying a lot of lean angle, which we know isn't the case because you are talking about speeds upwards of 34 mph in which case the bike would just fall over or b) you are hanging off the bike excessively to be able to reach the ground.

How is hanging off the bike so excessively the safest way to negotiate a corner?





PS, I know you are a safe, competent rider. I'm just arguing with you because it's nice to see a little discussion of riding technique on this forum for once.

I'm game for some discussion.  Let me first say that I've watched how the majority of other riders drag knee.  They appear bolted into their seats, with their knee out, bike leaned over accordingly, speed high enough to where their knee pad touches down.  



This is not how I do it and not how I see Brian doing it.  I float off the seat, to where my weight exerts a neutral and adjustable influence on directional control.  I feel and exert influence (body English) from my heal, toe, thigh and hands, not from my butt and hands alone.  More like this:



To me it's a 60/40 70/30 type of proposition.  If I had to take my last two off-road excursions into account, it would be easy for me to say one of them could have been completely averted had my skill level been where it is today.  The other one would have been iffy.   I think speed and silt played a significant roll in losing control.  The debate on the second, would have been to what severity the loss of control would have exacted.  Both were low-sides, so in the second case, instead of departing from the bike and both of us skipping along completely out of control with little friction slowing either of us down, had my knee been there, I might have been able to keep the tires on the road and simply slide to an insignificant low-side or saved it and ridden through.  My belief is that knee down would have lessened the severity of both.  And I've ridden both of those corners many times since, either slower or with my knee on the ground.  I find myself scratching my head as to how bad of a rider I must have been to crash in either corner.

One thing may be for certain and Mel can back me up on this, I ride into corners slower than would otherwise be necessary.

Since then, I've had two other incidents in corners where I was tri-podding in downhill right-hand corners and the front end momentarily washed.  One was similar to what I've experienced from riding over painted surfaces.  The other was from divots in the road from tractor tires.   As the front went away, the added pressure was taken up by my knee and quite literally instantly the front wheel progressively hooked back up.  There wasn't anything upsetting about them.  Whereas, had I not been knee down, the front had the opportunity to either completely wash out, and I'd have two more crashes on my hall of shame record or the bike would have visibly been shaken and I would have had my heart rate jump substantially.

In the two years since I've been practicing Brian's technique, minor slips are the worst I've experienced.  No back end slide/spits.  No front ends washing out completely.  No incidences that anyone watching would have said anything about or made my heart rate jump.  

Knee down, feels confidence inspiring, safe and enjoyable/fun/a blast!  Knee near down, when the knee could be/should be on the ground, is just asking for trouble.  I choose slower, with my knee on the ground.

[dub]

So the sole reason you drag knee is so that you can save a low side?

[GreenMachine]

Nope.

[dub]

Let me re-phrase.

The main reason you think dragging knee on the street is the safest way to ride is so you can save a low side off your knee?

[dr1150]

That's funny

[Mel]

I guess I need my popcorn cuz this is getting fun !

Mel

[288RR]

Mel. I have to popcorn started over here.   

[RocketRider]

FWIW, I feel "safer" hanging off the bike, though not to the extent of dragging knee typically. In the saddle I feel like the bike is fighting me. Off the saddle my weight can be distributed properly and I can sink in to a turn solid as can be (and also I think just being detached from the bikes bumps makes me feel better)

[GreenMachine]

Let me re-phrase.

The main reason you think dragging knee on the street is the safest way to ride is so you can save a low side off your knee?

I haven't really thought about it that way.  If I had to choose a main reason, man that would be difficult because there are so many that crop up as very good reasons, but if I had to choose one reason it would be...damn, I can't say there is one main reason.  I like them all.

[GreenMachine]

FWIW, I feel "safer" hanging off the bike, though not to the extent of dragging knee typically. In the saddle I feel like the bike is fighting me. Off the saddle my weight can be distributed properly and I can sink in to a turn solid as can be (and also I think just being detached from the bikes bumps makes me feel better)

+1

In RR's case, hanging off is far safer for him than being next to his bike in the garage (chain lubing).   

[dub]

FWIW, I feel "safer" hanging off the bike, though not to the extent of dragging knee typically.

That's because you have reduced lean angle. Less lean angle is always safer.

[RocketRider]

FWIW, I feel "safer" hanging off the bike, though not to the extent of dragging knee typically. In the saddle I feel like the bike is fighting me. Off the saddle my weight can be distributed properly and I can sink in to a turn solid as can be (and also I think just being detached from the bikes bumps makes me feel better)

+1

In RR's case, hanging off is far safer for him than being next to his bike in the garage (chain lubing).   

If you think chain cleaning is scary, you should see what I've been doing lately! But I'll let that be a surprise come the warm seasons...

[dub]

Here is a reader question, and answer, from the December issue of Sport Rider Magazine that perfectly illustrates the point I have been heading towards in this thread:

I've done a couple of trackdays here in Australia, but I really want to get my knee down. I was hoping you guys might consider running an article on how to do so with some drills that could be practiced on the road. -Brett Boys, Melbourne Australia

The aspect of "getting your knee down" is something that will come naturally with increased lean angle as your skill and confidence increase, rather than a practice that is done intentionally. If you're trying to intentionally drag your knee, you're spending concentration on the act that could be much better used for more important aspects of riding. And practicing dragging your knee on public roads only lead to unwanted attention from law enforcement and exposing yourself (and possibly others) to excessive risk. -Ed.

The reason we drag our knee is to use it as a lean angle indicator. As you tip into a turn, with your butt off the seat and your knee out, you know that when your knee hits the ground you are at a certain, steep lean angle. As your knee starts to come inboard between the ground and the bike you know that you are getting close to dragging knees/elbows/hard parts. You are now well into the danger zone and great care must be taken with your inputs to the controls as you are carrying a lot of speed with a lot of lean angle. Dragging your knee is just another tool that we use to tell what the motorcycle is doing underneath us.

That's why when I hear you talk about in this post how your goal is go slower and slower with your knee on the ground it's, like, a mind explosion because it just does not make any sense at all.

[GreenMachine]

You have a point.  I got schooled pretty good by RR this past summer at RFR. I think he was 4 seconds a lap faster and Skydiver was about 8. That's as close as I could get to their pace.  What is that like, a straightaway or at the very least some serious distance?  RFR beat me up pretty good too, unlike what I'm accustomed to from riding 49 or the like.  By the end of the day, my riding technique was more orthodox than not, because that technique was more comfortable and I felt more in tune with the bike at track speeds.

So I do feel I have an understanding of where your mindset is coming from, but I'm sorry if my unorthodox riding style make your head hurt.  We'll just have to accept that being different and riding differently is what adds to the flavor or our group rides; a form of two wheel expression.

I do draw concern however by the idea in the editorial that I'm possibly increasing the danger towards others by attempting to corner slower, with less lean angle.  18 - 24 MPH in 15 - 20 MPH corners doesn't seem like its excessively fast, given sunny clear conditions with good grip.  If anything I would think they'd be ushering more to do the same.

Bigcat & NVgixxer, you're 'lead' from now on!  Bring the XX or Connie/14R.  I'll sweep.