Motorcycle Vs. Car (fatal)

[bfitforriding]

Whew, this is a tough one.  You want to feel bad for her for being so stupid but........a life has been lost for a really dumb thing that could have been avoided.  Yes, we have all done dumb things at a young age (and even at an older age) but we also should pay the consequences when that dumb act effects others.  I would hope that she feels really bad.  It's hard to say with this generation.  She may be more pissed that this dude has messed up her life.  We all need to realize that we have to take responsibility for our actions.  Drinking and driving don't mix.....period.  Can't really get on a soap box for her being underage and drinking because many of us have been there, but........again, responsibility plays a major part.  My heart goes out to all involved, particularly the family of the motorcycle rider.

[Justin]

I bet she is mad at the biker for f_ _ _ing up her life.  Her picture reminded me of a self centered egotistical shallow pin head, but that may be because that could have me she killed. Every one deserves forgiveness not leniency.

All of us have our own emotions wrapped in something like this.
I really like your quote "everyone deserves forgiveness, not leniency"
 

[Adiggity]

Adiggity, only expressing my opinion I don't believe that's demonizing her. 

I would like for you to re-read your first post and tell me you weren't demonizing her. Your entitled to your opinion. Your opinion of her may be right, but it also may be wrong. You don't know this girl do you?

As far as premeditation, she deliberately drank (under age) and deliberately operated the vehicle. Because she knew (assuming) that she was going to drive to a party to consume alcohol and drive home or to another party that makes her actions premeditated.

How can you say things like she had plans to drive to a party and drive home or to another party. Maybe she had plans to stay there but something happened and she felt like she had to get out of there. You never know the story and you never knew her intentions.

Back in the day we put people in jail (DUI) for sleeping drunk in the front set of your parked un-started car with your keys in your purse, pocket, jacket...etc (premeditation). 

You will still get arrested for that today. 

 

Because she knew (assuming) that she was going to drive to a party to consume alcohol and drive home or to another party that makes her actions premeditated.

There you go. How's that old saying go about assuming?


 

This isn't any legal argument, just my opinion: also if a pull out my 9mm and pop a cap in someone that's not premeditation.  If a tell people before hand or write out a plan then it is.

Isn't that just what you did? Tell me the difference please.

Here in Nevada I think that DUI causing death or substantial bodily harm is a class B felony: 2- 20 and a fine of 2 – 5k.

You think, or are you just stating your opinion again? I looked it up and a DUI causing death or substantial bodily harm is punishable by 2 - 20 years in state prison.

So I stand by my opinion that not much is going to happen to her legally. 

We will see. I stand by my opinion that I will be shocked if she doesn't go to prison.

Civilly maybe she is wealthy and might lose some cash, that's hard to say look at OJ.  Just move to Florida and avoid collections on civil matters.

Yeah, and civilly maybe she is dead broke and has no money. OJ represents what % of people in the world. That would be a long shot at best.

Anyway this is very common accident according to the HURT report.  We all need to be careful and respectful of life as it is short as the real point.

Unfortunately I believe that and I agree.

Sorry if I may have offended any one, not my attention, just putting an opinion out there.

No offense taken. Just saying you could be very wrong in your assumptions and it's not fair to judge someone you have never even met and have no clue of what really happened or her intentions. My point is I don't think a 19 year old has great decision making skills to begin with. Mix that with alcohol and it's 10 X worse. Full grown adults act a fool when drinking. She made a HUGE mistake that she will regret for the rest of her life. And unfortunately another young kid had to die because of it. But there is also a possibility this incident would've happened if she had been drunk or not.

Who knows, maybe I'm totally off and she is a raging b--ch that was out to get wasted and see who she could run into and possibly kill.... line her up on the shooting gallery!!!

[Adiggity]

Yes I did "Stupid" shit at 19 but I was lucky enough not to kill anyone doing it.

My point exactly. "Lucky"

In the younger population there is a general lack of understanding about "cause and effect". Life has no re-set button but the majority of youngsters dont see that.

That is a general statement that could apply to older people too. You sound like my grandpa! 

I may be being harsh but a lifetime of experience has taught me that shit tends to happen to people when they dont know or choose to ignore the concequences of their actions. Driving drunk or under the influence places INOCENT people in harms way.

Not knowing and choosing are two different things. At 19 your "lifetime of experience" is pretty small.

*on soap box*Simple, if you are Driving or Riding DONT drink *off soap box*

Seems simple, but life doesn't work that way. There are a lot of things that I could "say" are simple but applying that to everyday life isn't so easy. Life sucks and s--t happens. Unfortunately innocent people get killed all the time. But sometimes life is great and great things happen. And scum bags walk the streets and die of old age.
[/quote]

[MotoPutz]

In the younger population there is a general lack of understanding about "cause and effect". Life has no re-set button but the majority of youngsters dont see that.

That is a general statement that could apply to older people too. You sound like my grandpa! 

Although this particular statement is a generalization (and stereotype), it is unfortunitely very true. The % of numbness is grewing through the generations. As being one of the younger ones in the group I have witnessed this numbness first hand. There is a gerneral belief that fault is never your own. If your failing school, its the teachers fault. I'm not saying she might not feel sorry for a while and then again later in life but as of right now, we have no idea what she feels. We all know the stages that are gone through.

Andy, I would have to agree with everything you say but you're still wrong, there is no exeption of guilt for driving drunk, unless there was a murderer or rapist actually chasing her, even if she felt she needed to leave the "party" she could have called a friend or a cab. I don't think this made it premeditated, but it was a choice, a poor alcohol effected choice. But a choice none the less. But not all fault can be hers unless she was aiming for the biker and trying to hit him, I know when I see a car doing anything close to out of the ordinary I slow down and plan for the improbable. Unfortunitly we get feelings of invulnerability when on bikes because we are so much faster and manuverable. But the facts are we will never win that game of chicken and we need to keep in the mind set that everyone is out to get us. And if she does not have a prior record of this type of offence then I'm pretty sure she will get a minimal sentence. Especially if she "feels very sorry" and cries. This will never bring back our fallen comrade but they (the courts) try to look out for whats best for both sides. Dumb desicions are made daily and she shouldn't have the book thrown at her if its her first poor desicion that had conciquences.

I wish both familes best of luck! And the only good that can come of this is if others, if even a few will learn from this and think alittle harder before thinking they can make the same mistake and they will just be the "lucky" one.

[Adiggity]

Although this particular statement is a generalization (and stereotype), it is unfortunitely very true. The % of numbness is grewing through the generations. As being one of the younger ones in the group I have witnessed this numbness first hand. There is a gerneral belief that fault is never your own. If your failing school, its the teachers fault. I'm not saying she might not feel sorry for a while and then again later in life but as of right now, we have no idea what she feels. We all know the stages that are gone through.

Every generation says that and maybe your right. Maybe we are more "numb" than our grandpas and maybe the next generation will be even worse. I know some young people who do a lot more to help the community and those who are less fortunate than most people in general.  I think kids will be kids and the older (or more mature) we get the more we notice how young people are.

Andy, I would have to agree with everything you say but you're still wrong, there is no exeption of guilt for driving drunk, unless there was a murderer or rapist actually chasing her, even if she felt she needed to leave the "party" she could have called a friend or a cab. I don't think this made it premeditated, but it was a choice, a poor alcohol effected choice. But a choice none the less.

I never said there is an exception of guilt. I am just saying lets not demonize and hang the poor girl for something that could've happened to a lot of us in our youth. As I said, it was a horrible decision that she probably feels horrible about but it doesn't mean she deserves to be shot with a 9mm in the street or has any hate towards the kid and his family (that she destroyed) for making her life a pain.

I do believe there are degrees of guilt though. Again I will ask you, what if she had 3 beers and was barely over the legal limit? Is that the same as somebody who is sloshed and had 14 beers and can't even stand up? What if this incident would have happened even if she hadn't drank a drop? We can play the "what if" game all day. Life isn't black and white. There are shades of lots of pretty colors ( ) in between, IMO.

And if she does not have a prior record of this type of offence then I'm pretty sure she will get a minimal sentence.

I am now really interested in how this turns out. You guys keep saying that but I will be VERY surprised if she gets a minimal sentence. DUI's are taken very seriously these days and when it's one that has killed someone (especially a 21 year old) you are instantly looked at like a loser criminal who is out for blood. And yes I have some experience with how the courts judge on DUI cases.

I wish both familes best of luck! And the only good that can come of this is if others, if even a few will learn from this and think alittle harder before thinking they can make the same mistake and they will just be the "lucky" one.

Fully agree with you there.

[Adiggity]

Here is the law for this case

NRS 484.3795  Penalty if death or substantial bodily harm results; exception; segregation of offender; plea bargaining prohibited; affirmative defense; aggravating factor. [Effective until the date of the repeal of the federal law requiring each state to make it unlawful for a person to operate a motor vehicle with a blood alcohol concentration of 0.08 percent or greater as a condition to receiving federal funding for the construction of highways in this State.]

      1.  Unless a greater penalty is provided pursuant to NRS 484.37955, a person who:

      (a) Is under the influence of intoxicating liquor;

      (b) Has a concentration of alcohol of 0.08 or more in his blood or breath;

      (c) Is found by measurement within 2 hours after driving or being in actual physical control of a vehicle to have a concentration of alcohol of 0.08 or more in his blood or breath;

      (d) Is under the influence of a controlled substance or is under the combined influence of intoxicating liquor and a controlled substance;

      (e) Inhales, ingests, applies or otherwise uses any chemical, poison or organic solvent, or any compound or combination of any of these, to a degree which renders him incapable of safely driving or exercising actual physical control of a vehicle; or

      (f) Has a prohibited substance in his blood or urine in an amount that is equal to or greater than the amount set forth in subsection 3 of NRS 484.379,

Ê and does any act or neglects any duty imposed by law while driving or in actual physical control of any vehicle on or off the highways of this State, if the act or neglect of duty proximately causes the death of, or substantial bodily harm to, a person other than himself, is guilty of a category B felony and shall be punished by imprisonment in the state prison for a minimum term of not less than 2 years and a maximum term of not more than 20 years and must be further punished by a fine of not less than $2,000 nor more than $5,000. A person so imprisoned must, insofar as practicable, be segregated from offenders whose crimes were violent and, insofar as practicable, be assigned to an institution or facility of minimum security.

      2.  A prosecuting attorney shall not dismiss a charge of violating the provisions of subsection 1 in exchange for a plea of guilty, guilty but mentally ill or nolo contendere to a lesser charge or for any other reason unless he knows or it is obvious that the charge is not supported by probable cause or cannot be proved at the time of trial. A sentence imposed pursuant to subsection 1 may not be suspended nor may probation be granted.

According to this she will FOR SURE get a minimum of 2 years in prison. #2 is also very important.

[Mike Cullen]

very good discussion, very sad circumstances. just pay attention out there and be aware of your surroundings.

[jlavallee]

I very much agree with the opinion that today's youth seem to expect that they are less accountable for their actions but who can say that this is the case here? This is a very unfortunate accident and I'll bet (I hope) she is very sorry for taking someones life. That said, even though she will be punished by guilt I still feel as though she must be held accountable for her actions. Regardless of circumstance, she killed someone and no matter what her age, she should of known better.

Now, she definately should not be punished as a person who shot someone would but either way, she has to pay for what she did.

My prayers are with both families as this must be a very difficult time for all involved.

[zipbyu]

     This sucks, and we could all relate, in both spots,(except the dead).   But we all know the risks on  a motorcycle.  The street really is scary.  I think is the unperdicabilty.  Since that I had my first trackday last year, this year I have put more miles on the track. 
     People tend to look for cars on the road.  So go a little faster the trafic, people will see you then.  Never stop for people in crosswalks(not stoping is a petpeve of mine in a car),  By the 4th time I came close to getting run over I started running through.   I would rather be alive to pay the tickit then dead and not too.  Speed doesn't kill, the sudden stop does.

[Justin]

I love the board.  It is the ability to express strong opinions, get challenged with different ideas, agree with some, disagree with others. Scotinexile is someone I really like, and someone who was there for me at a difficult time. (when i thought I was alone) Oldbolt is a guy a just met, and enjoy very much.  He's fun to be around.  Addigity is someone I listen to when he speaks because he is selective at what he comments on, he's trustworthy.
I for one have no issues with any of the comments made.  I think we all educate and enlighten each-other in varying ways and I appreciate the dialogue

If this doesn't go the way it should, we should look into a grassroots effort to reform the laws that protect riders and drivers alike.
That's something we could all support.

[cobra23]

New to the SSA, I read all the posts on this matter.

First of all it is very inspiring to see all the different opinions composed, with dignity. You are all of good character.

The girl feels terrible. She caused a terrible accident, human nature kicks in no matter what. She now has to face the Court system, and the penalties for that extreme lapse in Judgement. So she will suffer on two fronts.

The riders family suffers, if they are not overwhelmed by grief they will forgive her eventually. The Rider, well that would depend on your belief, as to wheter he is now suffering or just gone, or maybe even "in a better place".

I think as riders, we should read all we can about these kinds of accidents, as that may prepare  us to avoid a fatal outcome of our own.

I hope the Lawyers do not turn it into a circus, and start talking about how if the rider would have been in an automobile, he would have survived. One of the problems we have in this society is we always need to blame something or someone for accidents, and we need to do it quick.

The girl will never forget, and hopefully will tell the story a thousand times, and just maybe convince a few people to stay out of their cars when drinking.

[Justin]

In the younger population there is a general lack of understanding about "cause and effect". Life has no re-set button but the majority of youngsters dont see that.

That is a general statement that could apply to older people too. You sound like my grandpa! 

Although this particular statement is a generalization (and stereotype), it is unfortunitely very true.

Luke you ARE that generation.
Born-again virgins and abstinence clubs? vegetarianism? environmentalism?
Rock the Vote.  I see WAY more activism and global consciousness now (misguided or otherwide)

you were right when you said "we have no idea what she feels"
That's what I am trying to say, and that message comes through in Adiggity's posts.

[MotoPutz]

I guess I concider ever lump some that makes it through highschool a generation. So in my eyes they are one behind. But you are right, there is lots "active" youth. But in my belief that might account for about 10%. Just because we enjoy having the people around us that are intelligent doesn't mean there isn't a whole world of ignorent people out there. Maybe I'm just a pessimist. And just cause they are "active" doesn't mean they aren't numb to consequences or just don't think of them before hand. Its a dog eat dog world where people in general only look out for themselves. And like I have said, I agree with Andy's statements except with the fact that there is no argueement for drinking intoxicated. Whether it is 1 beer too many or 14. There are always other options. "Unless being actively chased by a rapist or murderer" and are scared for your life.

[nv919]

A horrible thing for sure. She absolutely needs to be punished. Lets all remember who started the terrible chain of events that unfolded in a death. She did. And only her. She made the bad choice to even have one drink as a minor. ( first law broken) She made the decision to drive ( second law broken, and I believe that driving drunk as a minor is even more of a no no) She broke the law and killed someone. On the other hand maybe even if she would not have been drinking she could have pulled out in front of the biker and still killed him. But the difference is the only law she would have broken was possibly failure to yield or failure to stop. Either way she would have to deal with the fact that she killed someone. She made the decision to break the law no matter how you look at it. She needs to pay for her actions. If you choose to break a law then you need to take responsibility if you get caught. To many people these days try to blame it on someone or something else. Like I said before a horrible thing. I would not want to be on either side of it. Just my five cents.
Justin